# ‘If You Want to Die in Jail, Keep Talking’ – Two National Security Law Experts Discuss the Special Treatment for Trump and Offer Him Some Advice  ## Metadata - Author:: [[Joseph Ferguson]] - Full Title:: ‘If You Want to Die in Jail, Keep Talking’ – Two National Security Law Experts Discuss the Special Treatment for Trump and Offer Him Some Advice - Category: #articles - URL: https://theconversation.com/if-you-want-to-die-in-jail-keep-talking-two-national-security-law-experts-discuss-the-special-treatment-for-trump-and-offer-him-some-advice-207482?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%20%20June%2012%202023%20-%202651526733&utm_content=Daily%20Newsletter%20%20June%2012%202023%20-%202651526733+Version+B+CID_ebdd6eca528e61bbddc0390a97b977f4&utm_source=campaign_monitor_us&utm_term=If%20you%20want%20to%20die%20in%20jail%20keep%20talking%20%20two%20national%20security%20law%20experts%20discuss%20the%20special%20treatment%20for%20Trump%20and%20offer%20him%20some%20advice ## Highlights ### Lawyer Thomas A. Durkin has spent much of his career working in [national security law](https://www.luc.edu/law/faculty/facultyandadministrationprofiles/durkin-thomas.shtml), representing clients in a variety of national security and domestic terrorism matters #### [The word “weaponized”](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republicans-repeat-trumps-claim-doj-weaponization-after-2nd/story?id=99963397) has been [used by Trump](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-magnifies-attacks-justice-department-post-charges-speech-2023-06-10/), his supporters and even his GOP rivals to describe the Department of Justice. Do you see the Trump prosecution as different in any notable way from other Espionage Act prosecutions that you’ve worked on or observed? > If Trump were anyone other than a former president, he would not have been given the [luxury of a summons to appear in court](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/us/reality-winner-nsa-sentence.html). There would be a team of armed FBI agents outside his door at 6:30 in the morning, he would have been arrested and the government would be immediately moving to detain. So the idea that he’s being treated differently is true – but not from the way his supporters seem to be arguing. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6gjsp1kdf6zf499gcw92f)) #### If Trump were your client, what would you advise him to do? > My quick calculations indicate that you’re talking about 51 to 63 months in the best case and in the worst case, which I’m not sure would apply, 210 to 262 months. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6hpsj3zg97fy6ka88c8rx)) > Whether he wants to roll heavy dice, that’s up to him. But those are very heavy dice. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6hv4nqsex1a4ve1yme7qz)) > I’d tell him: If you want to die in jail, keep talking. But if you want to try to figure out a way that brings about an acceptable resolution - a plea deal that opens the door to a lighter jail sentence than what the guidelines threaten and, possibly, even no jail time – you need to turn it down or at least have it screened by your lawyers. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6jjenyh8g48hq4rnd1n32)) #### Are there specific things he might say between now and a trial that could deepen his trouble? > people should understand that the things that he said already are being used as [evidence of intent](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23839628-trump-indictment). From now on, the repetition of them constitutes new admissible evidence. It’s not like, “Oh, I’ve already said it, so I might as well keep saying it.” ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6kep9gty41qcdn4p116rf)) > But anything that goes beyond that, and into the actual particulars, referencing the documents themselves, will just make it worse. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6ktx9kfdetzxaqf550rg4)) #### The Trump indictment provides [extensive details](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/09/trump-indictment-takeaways-00101376) of what was said and done. Do you take those as true, or as allegations that need to be proved? > The government basically raises the bar when it provides this form of granularity. The federal government is a risk-averse enterprise when it comes to these matters, so nothing is put in the indictment unless it exists in actual fact. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6msv0k5y97xdcw3s0ytw8)) #### Can you imagine a situation with all of the facts laid out in this indictment but where they would not indict? > These cases work from the premise that this is a fundamental compromising of the interests of the United States. And those are the cases that the government pursues tooth and nail ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6p2p6bq9f5cqmcxj6abw8)) > There’s only one reason the government could not bring this case, and that’s fear of violence or an attack on the republic. Once you do that, then you might as well close the Department of Justice and forget about any rule of law. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6pdk7j8k09hayqyebhk0c)) #### Trump knows a lot of state secrets. An angry Trump in prison has risks. If he were found guilty, what does incarceration look like for him? > I can tell you what it would mean to [anyone else](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-espionage-act-what-might-it-mean-donald-trump-2023-06-11/). They’d be put in a hole in the wall in [maximum security at Florence, Colorado](https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/flm/), and they would apply what’s called “[Special Administrative Measures](https://www.justice.gov/jm/jm-9-24000-requests-special-confinement-conditions) ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6q5qymhr6gewrcdjmkt3k)) > There’s a microphone outside their solitary confinement to monitor anything that they say, even between prisoners ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6qf8xt06vf8hhntezdz44)) #### Is there a specific line he could cross that would force the government to seek to detain him prior to trial? > predict that if he keeps it up, and especially if he keeps suggesting or threatening violence, that the government will be put in a position where they don’t have a choice but to try to move to detain him. In the real world, that’s what would happen if it was anybody but him. Normally, you can’t be threatening this type of stuff without being put in detention. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6rthyzk3eh5d6y2gbf0ck)) # ‘If You Want to Die in Jail, Keep Talking’ – Two National Security Law Experts Discuss the Special Treatment for Trump and Offer Him Some Advice  ## Metadata - Author:: [[Joseph Ferguson]] - Full Title:: ‘If You Want to Die in Jail, Keep Talking’ – Two National Security Law Experts Discuss the Special Treatment for Trump and Offer Him Some Advice - Category: #articles - URL: https://theconversation.com/if-you-want-to-die-in-jail-keep-talking-two-national-security-law-experts-discuss-the-special-treatment-for-trump-and-offer-him-some-advice-207482?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%20%20June%2012%202023%20-%202651526733&utm_content=Daily%20Newsletter%20%20June%2012%202023%20-%202651526733+Version+B+CID_ebdd6eca528e61bbddc0390a97b977f4&utm_source=campaign_monitor_us&utm_term=If%20you%20want%20to%20die%20in%20jail%20keep%20talking%20%20two%20national%20security%20law%20experts%20discuss%20the%20special%20treatment%20for%20Trump%20and%20offer%20him%20some%20advice ## Highlights ### Lawyer Thomas A. Durkin has spent much of his career working in [national security law](https://www.luc.edu/law/faculty/facultyandadministrationprofiles/durkin-thomas.shtml), representing clients in a variety of national security and domestic terrorism matters #### [The word “weaponized”](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republicans-repeat-trumps-claim-doj-weaponization-after-2nd/story?id=99963397) has been [used by Trump](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-magnifies-attacks-justice-department-post-charges-speech-2023-06-10/), his supporters and even his GOP rivals to describe the Department of Justice. Do you see the Trump prosecution as different in any notable way from other Espionage Act prosecutions that you’ve worked on or observed? > If Trump were anyone other than a former president, he would not have been given the [luxury of a summons to appear in court](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/us/reality-winner-nsa-sentence.html). There would be a team of armed FBI agents outside his door at 6:30 in the morning, he would have been arrested and the government would be immediately moving to detain. So the idea that he’s being treated differently is true – but not from the way his supporters seem to be arguing. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6gjsp1kdf6zf499gcw92f)) #### If Trump were your client, what would you advise him to do? > My quick calculations indicate that you’re talking about 51 to 63 months in the best case and in the worst case, which I’m not sure would apply, 210 to 262 months. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6hpsj3zg97fy6ka88c8rx)) > Whether he wants to roll heavy dice, that’s up to him. But those are very heavy dice. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6hv4nqsex1a4ve1yme7qz)) > I’d tell him: If you want to die in jail, keep talking. But if you want to try to figure out a way that brings about an acceptable resolution - a plea deal that opens the door to a lighter jail sentence than what the guidelines threaten and, possibly, even no jail time – you need to turn it down or at least have it screened by your lawyers. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6jjenyh8g48hq4rnd1n32)) #### Are there specific things he might say between now and a trial that could deepen his trouble? > people should understand that the things that he said already are being used as [evidence of intent](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23839628-trump-indictment). From now on, the repetition of them constitutes new admissible evidence. It’s not like, “Oh, I’ve already said it, so I might as well keep saying it.” ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6kep9gty41qcdn4p116rf)) > But anything that goes beyond that, and into the actual particulars, referencing the documents themselves, will just make it worse. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6ktx9kfdetzxaqf550rg4)) #### The Trump indictment provides [extensive details](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/09/trump-indictment-takeaways-00101376) of what was said and done. Do you take those as true, or as allegations that need to be proved? > The government basically raises the bar when it provides this form of granularity. The federal government is a risk-averse enterprise when it comes to these matters, so nothing is put in the indictment unless it exists in actual fact. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6msv0k5y97xdcw3s0ytw8)) #### Can you imagine a situation with all of the facts laid out in this indictment but where they would not indict? > These cases work from the premise that this is a fundamental compromising of the interests of the United States. And those are the cases that the government pursues tooth and nail ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6p2p6bq9f5cqmcxj6abw8)) > There’s only one reason the government could not bring this case, and that’s fear of violence or an attack on the republic. Once you do that, then you might as well close the Department of Justice and forget about any rule of law. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6pdk7j8k09hayqyebhk0c)) #### Trump knows a lot of state secrets. An angry Trump in prison has risks. If he were found guilty, what does incarceration look like for him? > I can tell you what it would mean to [anyone else](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-espionage-act-what-might-it-mean-donald-trump-2023-06-11/). They’d be put in a hole in the wall in [maximum security at Florence, Colorado](https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/flm/), and they would apply what’s called “[Special Administrative Measures](https://www.justice.gov/jm/jm-9-24000-requests-special-confinement-conditions) ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6q5qymhr6gewrcdjmkt3k)) > There’s a microphone outside their solitary confinement to monitor anything that they say, even between prisoners ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6qf8xt06vf8hhntezdz44)) #### Is there a specific line he could cross that would force the government to seek to detain him prior to trial? > predict that if he keeps it up, and especially if he keeps suggesting or threatening violence, that the government will be put in a position where they don’t have a choice but to try to move to detain him. In the real world, that’s what would happen if it was anybody but him. Normally, you can’t be threatening this type of stuff without being put in detention. ([View Highlight](https://read.readwise.io/read/01h2r6rthyzk3eh5d6y2gbf0ck))